Meeting 7 to hack HyperbolaBSD
[13:27]<infinite_recursi> Can we prepone tomorrow’s meeting by an hour or 2?
[13:50]<Emulatorman_> infinite_recursi: yes, anyway our meeting here will be
monday-friday at 14:00 UTC-5 (Ecuador zone)
[13:51]<rachad> Welcome Shadow_Lobster, TripleZer0, didou_
<rachad> the meeting will begin soon
[13:52]<Shadow_Lobster> thanks rachad :)
<rachad> Emulatorman_: i invited these peoples to join us today
<infinite_recursi> @Emulatorman_ : I ask to prepone it by an hour or 2.
<infinite_recursi> To host it at 1300 or 1200hrs UTC-5
<Emulatorman_> quiliro ^
[13:53]<infinite_recursi> It’s currently 0030hrs at my place, so it’s
difficult to stay awake.
<Emulatorman_> i have no problem with that
<Emulatorman_> quiliro: what do you think?
[13:59]<rachad> wb didou_
<rachad> try to stay here :)
[14:00]<rachad> Emulatorman_: can you give voice to TripleZer0
<Emulatorman_> ok
<TripleZer0> :P hi
[14:01]<infinite_recursi> quiliro: About the meeting preponing thing?
<rachad> hi TripleZer0 :)
[14:02]<infinite_recursi> Hey 000
[14:03]<quiliro> infinite_recursi: if everyone else is ok with it, I have no
problem
[14:04]<quiliro> infinite_recursi: but that would mean I would have to skip
lunch
[14:05]<quiliro> hello everyone
<TripleZer0> hi
<quiliro> was just finishing lunch
<Emulatorman_> guys, i would let you know about some courses to take as
reference or idea, and 2 tutorials for those from the
team who would learn C for the HyperbolaBSD development
[14:06]<Emulatorman_>
https://www.udemy.com/course/c-programming-for-beginners-programming-in-c/
<Emulatorman_>
https://www.udemy.com/course/developing-a-multithreaded-kernel-from-scratch/
<infinite_recursi> quiliro: prepone lunch just a bit please
<Emulatorman_>
https://www.udemy.com/course/linux-device-driver-programming-using-beaglebone-black/
<infinite_recursi> quiliro: It’s quite late here, that’s the issue.
<Emulatorman_>
https://www.udemy.com/course/complete-x86-assembly-language-120-practical-exercise/
<quiliro> Emulatorman_: I found udemy sources advertized ubuntu,
needed drm to see the videos and would not work at all
without javascript
[14:07]<Emulatorman_> quiliro: the another alternative is follow tutorials
[14:08]<Emulatorman_> https://www.tutorialspoint.com/cprogramming/index.htm
<Emulatorman_> https://www.cprogramming.com/tutorial/c-tutorial.html
<rachad> yeah i agree with quiliro and so i did follow tutorials
Emulatorman_ and i will ways to learn more ;)
[14:09]<biovoid> A friend recommended the K&R textbook for C
<rachad> can you share a link biovoid
[14:12]<infinite_recursi> This is for contribution on hyperbk?
<rachad> infinite_recursi: i have no issues to prepone the meeting 2
hours
[14:13]<rachad> quiliro: i have invited Shadow_Lobster TripleZer0 and didou_
to join us today
<biovoid> I found several pdfs, but I have not been able to find
whether they are legally hosted
<rachad> welcome back throgh :)
<biovoid>
https://archive.org/details/TheCProgrammingLanguageFirstEdition
oh here’s archive.org
[14:15]<rachad> Emulatorman_: can you give voice to throgh
[14:16]<Emulatorman_> ok
<throgh> Thanks, hello together. :)
<throgh> Have to recover my password later.
<LightBearer> hello, I am so sorry for being late.
<rachad> welcome back LightBearer :)
<throgh> Hello LightBearer.
[14:17]<LightBearer> hello to all of you
<quiliro> rachad: nice that you invited these people
<infinite_recursi> Lit up this irc channel, LightBearer
<quiliro> welcome to the free world: Shadow_Lobster TripleZer0 didou_
[14:18]<Emulatorman_> hi guys, coadde stills structuring our git repos while
i’m adding throgh to the team database
<Shadow_Lobster> thanks
<infinite_recursi> Welcome to the clan, throgh
<quiliro> I hope you feel comfortable with us…please do not doubt to
ask questions or make comments or answer questions
<infinite_recursi> Though you were always in the clan!
<infinite_recursi> Pun intended
<quiliro> the best way to generate something useful is to interact
<TripleZer0> Keep on rocking in the free world!!!
[14:19]<throgh> Building free worlds. :)
[14:20]<quiliro> thanks for the links to tutorials Emulatorman_ and biovoid
<quiliro> hey throgh
<quiliro> welcome to the chatroom LightBearer …were you with throgh ?
[14:23]<LightBearer> :=) no I was with Quiliro, he was helping me to use this
channel
[14:24]<infinite_recursi> :P
<rachad> Emulatorman_: i can already see changes in the git with our
names
<quiliro> LOL
[14:25]<quiliro> LightBearer: I was just trying to get off the blame of you
not being here on time
<throgh> You remember me doing that the same. :) Or I have to checkup
bunch of older HDDs for profiles saved. Yeiks, tried too much
with Hyperbola and many WMs. :P
[14:26]<quiliro> how do you pronounce your nick, throgh ?
<infinite_recursi> I’d like to ask, what are the things left to do till
v0.4?
<LightBearer> during this course, things are changing for me too fast
and I get dizzy and I don not know who is talking to
me. :=)
<Emulatorman_> rachad: yes, each member will have their personal git
environment, so you could upload also your personal
source codes there while it respect freedom (FSDG and
Hyperbola Guidelines)
[14:27]<rachad> can we already make changes and upload to our git Emulatorman_
[14:28]<infinite_recursi> We’ll have own branches or complete repos?
<Emulatorman_> infinite_recursi: yes, we need a list of needed packaged
to do, let me see the link in the forums
[14:30]<infinite_recursi> I guess branches, full repo for each person would be
too much!
[14:31]<LightBearer> Plase, someone can tell the difference between clone and
copy?
<quiliro> for those that do not know what git is for: it is a system to
keep track of changes in text files edited by a group
[14:32]<LightBearer> Quiliro and git hub?
<rachad> wb Emulatorman_
<throgh> Welcome back! :)
<Emulatorman> ty
[14:33]<quiliro> github is a git hosting place…but it can be hosted in any
server
[14:34]<throgh> @LightBearer You mean in context for repositories? Besides
Github is one possible hosting. There are others like
notabug.org or Gitlab. You can also build own hosting-sites,
local or within the global network.
[14:35]<LightBearer> thank you quiliro and throgh
<quiliro> LightBearer:
https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/what-is-git-and-how-to-use-it-c341b049ae61/
<rachad> throgh: check out https://sourcehut.org/
[14:37]<quiliro> LightBearer: my link is a more profound description…you can
keep it as a reference for understanding git later, when you
see something you do not understand while you use it
<rachad> Emulatorman: so what can be done to start helping if some us
have played with C in the past and know what to do
<quiliro> LightBearer: it is not necesary to read my link now
[14:38]<rachad> for example Shadow_Lobster and TripleZer0 already know
programing how cna they help
* quiliro suggests LightBearer grab the link and put it in her purse
[14:39]<quiliro> Shadow_Lobster, TripleZer0 : ¿have you used git before?
<TripleZer0> i have
<TripleZer0> what we need?
[14:40]<quiliro> pull, push
<quiliro> I guess also: merge
<quiliro> commit, obviously
<quiliro> add
<Emulatorman> rachad: give some minutes, i’m going to looking for a
list of TODO for packaging and develop our kernel
<quiliro> remove
<Shadow_Lobster> yes I have used it too
[14:41]<rachad> okay Emulatorman take your time
<TripleZer0> yea you get the dependency installed or whatever and you
can do commands if you are into that
<TripleZer0> right? lol
<quiliro> clone and init, probably
[14:42]<biovoid> I am pretty familiar with git, but don’t know rebase very
well
<quiliro> I use Emacs magit for dealing with git
<quiliro> oh! rebase
<quiliro> and the old faithful git log
[14:43]<quiliro> never used rebase or merge before
<quiliro> I am a newbie
<Emulatorman> rachad: it is the list of desired packaged for v0.4 ->
https://ethercalc.openstack.org/3gquqie98gwu
<Emulatorman> rachad: i lost the forum thread about it
<Emulatorman> throgh: do you remember about that thread about v0.4?
<rachad> infinite_recursi: ^
<infinite_recursi> rachad: ?
[14:44]<Emulatorman> now, i’m pushing the list of files developed for
HyperbolaBSD
<Emulatorman> and the TODO
<Emulatorman> it is required to create a wiki Roadmap with details
about it
<quiliro> the difference between clone and copy is that copying is not
done with git or with its version control
<quiliro> clone will copy the contents
[14:45]<rachad> infinite_recursi: you asked about hyperbola 0.4 and whats left
to be done
<rachad> check the list Emulatorman shared
<LightBearer> I was readying the link you gave me and please tell me
what is the meaning of demoing and snippet
<infinite_recursi> rachad: yes, that I’ve seen
<quiliro> LightBearer: I guess clone will only copy a git repository
<infinite_recursi> It was on forum a long time ago
<quiliro> but copy can copy a local file
[14:46]<quiliro> LightBearer: on my link?
<infinite_recursi> git takes care of a hidden folder called ‘.git’
<infinite_recursi> If one copies that hidden folder too, I don’t think
there should be a difference between clone and copy
<LightBearer> yes the last link you gave me (a few mintues ago)
[14:47]<throgh> As Emulatorman mentioned: There is spreadsheet with
recommendations https://ethercalc.openstack.org/3gquqie98gwu
and a forum thread with more insights:
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=434
<quiliro> LightBearer: demo-ing is an invented word for «making a
demonstation»
<Emulatorman> ty throgh
[14:49]<quiliro> LightBearer: snippet is
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/snippet
<quiliro> it is a small piece of code, LightBearer
<quiliro> as in common language, it could be a parragraph
[14:50]<quiliro> for source code
<Emulatorman> guys, it is our current TODO for HyperbolaBSD kernel ->
https://paste.debian.net/plain/1193762
<LightBearer> quiliro: thank you
[14:51]<Emulatorman> currently we are working on the /kern /sys and /uvm
folders were are the pillar code of the kernel
[14:53]<quiliro> infinite_recursi proposed to make our meeting 2 hours earlier
(it is 0h00 at their time zone)…anyone would care to accept
or reject?
[14:54]<infinite_recursi> So the thing to do is to create identical logic with
own code for AGPLv3 licensing
<infinite_recursi> I accept
<rachad> i accept
<throgh> Okay, accepted. :)
[14:56]<quiliro> if there are no rejections, we could make it 1 hour before
the usual time for tomorrow and then decide tomorrow what
time to do it the next days
[14:57]<quiliro> if it works well tomorrow, we could make it another hour
earlier
<Emulatorman> this link won’t expire anymore ->
https://paste.debian.net/plain/1193765
[14:58]<rachad> http://0x0.st/-TCC.txt
<rachad> infinite_recursi: ^
[15:00]<quiliro> thanks for the roadmap, rachad
<infinite_recursi> I gotta sleep now. Goodbye folks
<rachad> quiliro: if you prepone the meeting 1 hour i wont be here in
the first 30 mint
<infinite_recursi> Peace
<rachad> thats why i agreed about 2 hours
<rachad> good night infinite_recursi
[15:01]<quiliro> rachad: oh
<biovoid> How do we re-implement the same functionality for a file
without it being interpreted as a derivative work? Seems like
a grey area, unless the original file is not referenced at
all (which is hard to prove)
<quiliro> nice you came infinite_recursi
<infinite_recursi> Thanks quiliro :D
<infinite_recursi> gn rachad
[15:02]<quiliro> rachad: but being 2 hours early might confuse people who did
not come today
[15:04]<rachad> i break my fasting at 1pm utc-5 quiliro
<quiliro> biovoid: the first is to change variable names…the next
would be to use a different process
<Emulatorman> throgh: we should create a Roadmap article around of
those 2 links http://0x0.st/-TCC.txt and
https://paste.debian.net/plain/1193765
<Emulatorman> quiliro ^
<rachad> cant leave the tasty food and be here :)
<Emulatorman> those links contain the TODO and the current list
[15:05]<Emulatorman> it is the high priority task in Hyperbola Project
[15:06]<quiliro> Emulatorman: I don’t know what to do with them…
<biovoid> quiliro: might that force us into a less-efficient process in
some cases? I suppose that will take some creativity ;P
<rachad> Emulatorman: can we do it the way it the old todo was here
https://www.hyperbola.info/todo/java-removal/
<quiliro> biovoid: what is your suggestion??
[15:07]<biovoid> I don’t have a solution right now; this is just a concern of
mine
<rachad> *can we do it the way the old todo was there
<biovoid> maybe it will not be an issue
[15:08]<Emulatorman> quiliro: ok, don’t worry, throgh will handle it
<rachad> biovoid: why it doesn’t need to be interpreted as derivative
work ?
<Emulatorman> anyway, i suggest a pad to speed up it as fast as
possible while our git structuring still under
development
[15:09]<biovoid> rachad: maybe I am wrong, but depending on the original
file’s license it might not be allowed to change the license
<biovoid> if too similar
[15:10]<Emulatorman> guys, i opened a pad in riseup.net to begin our roadmap
draft -> https://pad.riseup.net/p/hyperbolabsd_roadmap
<Emulatorman> throgh ^
[15:11]<rachad> okay biovoid we surelly need to know more about that
<Emulatorman> throgh is going to begin a draft of that based on those
links ( https://paste.debian.net/plain/1193765 and
http://0x0.st/-TCC.txt )
[15:12]<rachad> Emulatorman: we need javascript to see that :/
<Emulatorman> we could help him to improve/fix grammar, etc
<quiliro> Emulatorman: can’t we just have a regular non-gui git
repository to start?
<throgh> Start working on the concurrent news-entry for today within
the forums. You can read more about that here:
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=525
<Emulatorman> rachad: do you have another pad alternative?
<rachad> not yet but i will research
[15:13]<quiliro> git clone hyperbolabsd.hypebola.info/sources.git
<Emulatorman> quiliro: coadde stills preparing our git structure, it
takes time and i would speed up our draft
<Emulatorman> if you guys know some pad or something similar
environment, please let me know
[15:14]<quiliro> why is it so complicated, Emulatorman ?
<quiliro> Emulatorman:to set up the git server
[15:15]<Emulatorman> coadde is who is handling it quiliro, ask him about it :P
<quiliro> i thought it was just including ssh public keys and starting
an openssh-server
[15:16]<throgh> At all: Remember that git is distributed, so it is possible to
create own local infrastructure – not meant on another system
– with small overhead. Perhaps Gogs or Gitea are good for a
start. I think it is therefore possible pushing own branches
back towards the project itself! And a merge should be also
possible when ready. :)
<Emulatorman> quiliro: afaik, coadde want an environment where our team
has access their own accounts and git repos
environments. it takes time, because requires
permissions, personal accounts, also our servers are made
under sandboxes and paranoid security
[15:20]<quiliro> I do not know enough about git to merge or branch
<quiliro> yet
<Emulatorman> there are git repos only for mirrors, our structuring is
so complex and decentralized because it was decided to
avoid conflicts between commits.
[15:21]<quiliro> I am also clueless about how to check the files which need to
be replaced and how to replace them….
<quiliro> ok, Emulatorman
[15:23]<quiliro> I would like to learn about how how to replace these
files… but I know coadde is very busy
<quiliro> Emulatorman: it would be very useful for you to show us one
change you made and why
[15:24]<rachad> welcome back LightBearer
<quiliro> LightBearer: welcome back
<Emulatorman> we had headaches some time ago when it was centralized in
all-in-one access to git, so, we made personal user git
accounts for personal tasks, commit tests, or testing,
and a team account git access to share our commits there
and the official ones (read-only) that will accept only
the stable commits and checked without copyright
violation
<quiliro> why did you leave?
<quiliro> LightBearer: ^
<quiliro> nice, Emulatorman
[15:25]<throgh> welcome back, LightBearer
<Emulatorman> quiliro: i could help to how to use git if you want
[15:26]<quiliro> Emulatorman: not that…I think someone else can do
that…but only you can teach us about a change in the
hyperbk code
[15:27]<quiliro> a diff would be great along with an explanation, Emulatorman
<Emulatorman> quiliro: coadde sent 2 links samples about that in the
previous meetings
<Emulatorman> quiliro: but if you want i will request him again
<quiliro> let me check, which day?
[15:28]<quiliro> no…please do not distract him
<Emulatorman> don’t worry
<quiliro> if he is doing the server stuff, that is ok
<Emulatorman> i asked him right now
<quiliro> the idea is to show an example of what was changed
[15:29]<quiliro> why it was changed too
<quiliro> and what is the method of changing it
<Emulatorman> i will show you a basic C sample example of two different
development with the same result to understand the method
and way how to develop compatible code
<quiliro> so each of us could try our own changes
[15:31]<rachad> okay thank you Emulatorman looking forward to that
[15:32]<rachad> Shadow_Lobster, TripleZer0 do you have questions ?
<LightBearer> I had a problem with my computer… Accordingly to the
change of the hour of our meetings, I prefer to keep it
as it has been all this time. At 2pm UTC-5
[15:33]<quiliro> either LightBearer or rachad have to skip a meal….LOL
<rachad> LightBearer: im fasting as well and this time is perfect for
me this month
<LightBearer> lol
<quiliro> Emulatorman: great!
[15:34]<throgh> Just as annotation, here you are for the news based on the
meeting today:
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=525
[15:38]<quiliro> nice job throgh
[15:39]<quiliro> I would rather have non-javascript links , but others might
not
<rachad> thank you throgh for your input, the udemy cources are just
suggestions from Emulatorman and each one of us can take
diffrent path or chooce other way to learn programing
[15:40]<quiliro> Emulatorman: will you give us the example you offered to
show, please
<rachad> books for example!
<quiliro> books, books, books
[15:41]<throgh> For sure, but those are generic problems of our time:
JavaScript … even needed for some so-called
«webapplications». Nothing personal meant, but some of them
are right that big and even systems on their own to
manage. Perhaps it would be also interesting to have those
list back in the forum or Wiki at one point? Would be more
static, of course!
<quiliro> do you know why we need a git server, LightBearer
<quiliro> ?
[15:42]<quiliro> javascript is a way to run software which you have not
installed on your computer
[15:43]<quiliro> so the server owner controls your computer
<rachad> yeah thats why its disabled for me but maybe we can have a
list of trusted software to run in our browsers
<quiliro> but that is yet another topic
[15:44]<throgh> Yes, that’s the major issue and problem. But that is a big
one! :)
<LightBearer> Yes indeed, that was the problem that my poor computer
had, and it has collapsed for a while….
<TripleZer0> im ok just looking here and there
<rachad> like the pad at riseup!
[15:45]<quiliro> javascript, LightBearer ?
<rachad> and what do you think TripleZer0
<LightBearer> yes, quiliro about javascript on my poor computer.
<quiliro> wow
[15:46]<quiliro> she felt it was unjust for it too, LightBearer ?
[15:47]<quiliro> Minall suggested an introduction to C programming some days
ago
<LightBearer> my computer joint to my rights as a user.
[15:48]<Emulatorman> quiliro: here the 2 samples with similar results ->
https://paste.debian.net/1193771/
<LightBearer> I only tried to hear my favorite radio program on my
computer and it collapsed, with a lot of information that
I did not requested.
[15:49]<Emulatorman> in short, both codes require you set a date and then
print
[15:50]<quiliro> ok…I remember we saw those two the other day
<quiliro> but it wwould be nice to see a real hyperbk example
<quiliro> please, Emulatorman
[15:51]<quiliro> something you have already changed, if there is
<Emulatorman> in my case i used a switch condition with void return
while coadde used an 2D array with char return
<LightBearer> Emulatorman: what is the meaning of main in this
programming.
[15:55]<Emulatorman> quiliro: check https://paste.debian.net/plain/1193765 the
perfect sample to compare is kern/syscalls.c (from
OpenBSD 6.6) and kern/syscl.c (from HyperbolaBSD)
[15:56]<Emulatorman> let me see a link page from OpenBSD 6.6 for that
[15:58]<quiliro> Emulatorman: kern/syscl.c is only the name on that link…no
code
[15:59]<quiliro> DONE kern/syscl.c – kern/syscalls.conf
[16:01]<quiliro> kern/syscalls.c DONE kern/syscl.c –
[16:03]<quiliro> by the way, the git repo is at
https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/
[16:04]<Emulatorman>
https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/src/sys/kern/syscalls.c?rev=1.207&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=OPENBSD_6_6_BASE
<Emulatorman>
https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/hyperbolabsd/hyperbk.git/plain/kern/syscl.c
[16:05]<rachad> LightBearer: its the starting of the code
<quiliro> there are a bunch of repositories under hyperbolabsd/ on
https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/
[16:07]<quiliro> LightBearer: there are the main part of the program and the
include-d parts (accessories)
[16:08]<quiliro> Emulatorman: On OpenBSD that file is automatically
generated…why do we generate it manually?
[16:09]<rachad> LightBearer: you can learn this by reading the number 4 page
here
https://www.tutorialspoint.com/cprogramming/c_program_structure.htm
<Emulatorman> quiliro: it isn’t mandatory to develop a code manually or
not, remember that our code is not based on them, it was
made from scratch
[16:11]<LightBearer> thank you all for the information.
<Emulatorman> quiliro: if you copy or base on their «script» to
generate the code, then it is plagiarism
<quiliro> LightBearer: put your reading glasses on!
<LightBearer> Iam already reading the information.
<LightBearer> quiliro: lol
[16:12]<Emulatorman> quiliro: i just read how it works (algorithms), then i
will create my own code to reproduce as new compatible
code
[16:13]<quiliro> Emulatorman: did you type the algorithm first before writting
this file?
<Emulatorman> in short the algorithm contains a group of diffents
things with a number result
<Emulatorman> yes, that is the best way, but not mandatory under law
<quiliro> where is the algorithm for this file, Emulatorman
<quiliro> ?
[16:14]<throgh> welcome back Glider_IRC_
[16:15]<Emulatorman> quiliro: here it was the algorithm made by coadde ->
https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/hyperbolabsd/algorithms.git/plain/kern_kern_system_call_c_code.txt
<quiliro> hey Glider_IRC_
<quiliro> did not see you before
*** Users on #hyperbola: Glider_IRC_ LightBearer coadde @Emulatorman
+throgh Shadow_Lobster raghavgururajan rachad Minall tech_exorcist
quiliro SomeHacker dmc asdflkj_shell GoatAvenger ZANSIGO leomd_
bandali kisaja[m] Voitena[m] iortega[m] hook54321 nckx biovoid
Redfoxmoon GNUtoo bcavileer urluck jschwart asdflkj elibrokeit
lukeshu ggoes mai__ lablt
[16:16]<quiliro> hyperbola channel is full house now
<Emulatorman> it is a sample to create the new compatible code, some
parts such as «never use» was added by coadde to suggest
us avoid use those methods used by OpenBSD to avoid
plagiarism
<Emulatorman> the algoritm showed there was made by coadde as sample
and base to create a new one from scratch
[16:18]<quiliro> ok, emulatorman…so we went from
https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/src/sys/kern/syscalls.c?rev=1.207&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=OPENBSD_6_6_BASE
to
https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/hyperbolabsd/algorithms.git/plain/kern_kern_system_call_c_code.txt
to
https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/hyperbolabsd/hyperbk.git/plain/kern/syscl.c
<quiliro> is that correct, Emulatorman ?
[16:19]<Emulatorman> we don’t require our team to create algorithm right now,
because seems it isn’t mandatory, however we require
never use the OpenBSD code as base to create a code,
because it will become a fork, not a new code. To create
a new code, it is required to understand the logic and
functionality of the origin code, and then make a new
code from scratch
[16:21]<quiliro> the algorithm describes the logic and functionality of the
original code or does it compose the process directly?
[16:22]<quiliro> and the logic and functionality is just the obvious result
<Emulatorman> quiliro: not exactly, we read kern/syscalls.c to see how
it works, and we paid attention in that case that it is
just a C code where contains a group of differents things
(system calls) with a specific number. So we saw that
they used a char array pointer with that group, so we
decided create our new one by using a different
expression of idea such as using constants
<throgh> Yes, often described of one «recipe for cooking». The famous
example is to make a hardboiled eggs:
https://image.slidesharecdn.com/chapter2representationofalgorithms-120124083655-phpapp02/95/chapter-2-representation-of-algorithms-14-728.jpg?cb=1327395027
[16:23]<Emulatorman> so both code are differents ways of expression of idea,
but in fact both are using a group of different system
call with a specific and required number to call
different tasks in the system
[16:24]<Emulatorman> in that case it isn’t a fork, it is a new compatible
code, but in this case you need adapt **entire** source
code on the new compatible code by alingining all code
files to work with the new code
<quiliro> ok…I get the general idea…but it would be nice for you to
describe it in more detail in this specific case
[16:25]<quiliro> Emulatorman: what is a system call’
<quiliro> ?
[16:26]<Emulatorman> quiliro: system call is a group of different tasks
asigned for the kernel to handle when a specific task is
required such as handle time, memory, etc
[16:27]<Emulatorman> so some application could require some thing to the
kernel, then it will require by sending a system call
number to the kernel to give more memory, or adjust the
time, etc, so the kernel will receive it and then will
give the requested task to the application
<Emulatorman> it is an basic example how to work kernel with system
calls
[16:29]<Emulatorman> a kernel is required to wait for «calls» from around the
system, so it is the important part of a kernel. when you
create a new compatible code, it makes incompatible with
OpenBSD, so ports is so important there. eg. if you want
to add Iceweasel-UXP for HyperbolaBSD, you need «adapt»
the system calls inside the code to make work correctly
in the future HyperbolaBSD
<Emulatorman> i mean the Iceweasel-UXP’s source code
[16:30]<Emulatorman> so it is a response and example to understand that
HyperbolaBSD won’t be compatible with OpenBSD or any BSD
descendant system, because we are implementing new
compatible code, by making it a future new OS
[16:31]<throgh> Welcome back, rachad. :)
[16:32]<Emulatorman> so when HyperbolaBSD will be ready to be used, we need go
to a «special» phase where we will need port all of our
packages or at least request their developers
(eg. current Emacs dev) to port Emacs for HyperbolaBSD,
port vim for HyperbolaBSD, etc
[16:33]<Emulatorman> that is the difference between a new compatible code and
a fork
[16:34]<biovoid> This all helps address the concern I mentioned earlier. I
feel some of it could get muddled easily though, if not
careful
<Emulatorman> there are 2 methods to make forks, the first one is to
make an adaption such as «remove nonfree things» or
«implement improvements», but it could keep compatible,
then the another fork is known as «hard-forking» that is
used as base or point of start to begin a develop a
new/future software
[16:36]<Emulatorman> HyperbolaBSD used the OpenBSD-6.6 as «base» to begin
develop a new future OS, in the same manner than OpenBSD
made by using NetBSD as base for their initial version
around 90’s
[16:37]<rachad> thank you throgh i went afk for a bit
* rachad is back
[16:38]<Emulatorman> our goal here is develop GPLed code to implement future
GPLed features and code, also continue with our own code
under GPLed. i explained that in the interview at It’s
FOSS -> https://itsfoss.com/hyperbola-linux-bsd/
<Emulatorman> in short, create a GPLed BSD descendant system
[16:39]<quiliro> Emulatorman: Thank you for your explanation of what a system
call is.
[16:40]<quiliro> Emulatorman: would you please describe in more detail what
each part of that example code does? Imagine I am 5 years old
for making a very simple explanation.
[16:44]<Emulatorman> quiliro: i’m not a C teacher lol, but in short OpenBSD’s
code is using an array pointer with char data type where
was added a complex group of different tasks (system
calls) with a specific number
[16:46]<Emulatorman> you should at least understand arrays, pointers and data
types to understand the syntax there, but summarizing it,
it contains a group of different tasks with assigned
number for a specific task requested from an input device
«keyboard» or applications
[16:47]<rachad> quiliro: i think this meeting was verry informative but it
took much more time then the previous ones
<Emulatorman> so we have decided use a macro of definitions as new
compatible code.
[16:48]<rachad> thank you Emulatorman for all this nice explanation
<Emulatorman> for that you should understand macros, constants and
pre-processor in C
[16:49]<biovoid> I imagine we are to follow OpenBSD’s style guide?
[16:51]<Emulatorman> biovoid: yes, we have a style based on them ->
https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:main:hyperbolabsd_coding_style_guidelines
<biovoid> oh wonderful
[16:52]<rachad> this will be great for all of us to understand how a system
work from scratch
[16:55]<rachad> i think today meeting was great thank you all for your time
<rachad> good night didou_ :)
<rachad> lol
* rachad is going afk…
[16:57]<quiliro> nice to have you rachad
[16:59]<quiliro> I would like to propose that tomorrow someone give an
introduction to C language
[17:00]<quiliro> who would like to do this?
[17:02]<LightBearer> yes quiliro, I think it is such a good idea.
<quiliro> we do need many instructors, so there is no need to fight for
this position
* rachad is back!
[17:03]<LightBearer> I suggest Throgh, could do it. He has spirit of a very
good teacher.
<quiliro> oh…nice
<quiliro> would you do that for us tomorrow, throgh ?
[17:05]<Emulatorman> i think, we should get some volunteer to create C
essential tutorials for our wiki and markdown for those
who hate javascript
<biovoid> I have previously been a mentor for a coding camp (bt not for
C). I am not quite qualified to lead a training, but I hope
to be a resource to help answer questions
<quiliro> neat, biovoid
<quiliro> thank you
[17:06]<rachad> welcome back throgh
<quiliro> biovoid: it would be great that you could check the code and
try to explain it
<Emulatorman> biovoid: any volunteer is welcome here, instructors or
mentors for a coding such as C are high priority for free
software project such as HyperbolaBSD to bring more
volunteers and future students to our team
<quiliro> hey throgh
[17:07]<rachad> throgh_: ^
<quiliro> did you see my message for you?
[17:08]<quiliro> Emulatorman: I think throgh_ is unvoiced
[17:09]<Emulatorman> done
<LightBearer> what is unvoiced?
<throgh_> Thanks! :)
[17:10]<throgh_> @LightBearer: The concept to grant people / accounts /
nicknames the right to write or better to speak. A protection
for spam and unwanted participants in some places.
<quiliro> LightBearer: it is when you are mutted in the chatroom
<LightBearer> thank you.
[17:11]<quiliro> throgh_: would you give us a little introduction to C
tomorrow?
<LightBearer> throgh, do you agree to be our instructor tomorrow about
the C language?
<throgh_> Yes, I think doing some kind of introduction would be
interesting. But tomorrow is a little short in time. So I
would propose the question first: How many of you feel
prepared getting deeper into the «rabbit-hole»? I know there
are people having experiences. :)
[17:12]<throgh_> I think it is good to have all at one level to start. Of
course as in every class: There are differences. No problem,
but it would be good having all on board.
[17:13]<throgh_> When I define «carl», what do you think? «int carl = 5» ;)
<quiliro> some people have left because the meeting started more than 3
hours ago
<rachad> im just starting with C tbh
[17:14]<LightBearer> what is tbh?
<rachad> to be honest
<throgh_> @quiliro: Yeah for sure. Therefore only a little check, not
representative in general.
<LightBearer> thank you
<rachad> ;)
[17:15]<quiliro> carl is an integer, a number without decimals
<rachad> throgh_: what is your question
<rachad> int = integer
<throgh_> @rachad: The question is … everybody knows what this is?
This was a little question from my teacher back in the days
with Java. :D
<quiliro> even if it sounds like a string, a person’s name ;-)
[17:17]<quiliro> I think str is string of characters
<quiliro> and char is a single character
<rachad> …. 5- 4- 3- 2- 1- 0 1 2 3 4 5 ….. << these are integers
<rachad> yes quiliro
<throgh_> Yeah, but a variable-name with value in first place. Sorry,
don’t want to be rude. Just to have some impression:
Programming cannot be learned throughout learning syntax and
commands. It’s more a concept about logic and having books
beside you. Emulatorman and coadde define their own
data-structures way beyond. But for the first start giving
more insights how to get this up.
[17:18]<quiliro> and bool is a binary: true or false, 0 or 1
[17:19]<rachad> i think we should start by reading this tutorial
https://www.tutorialspoint.com/cprogramming/index.htm
<rachad> it will help us begin our journee
[17:20]<throgh_> Yes, boolean: Just two states and values. For the first
impression imagine this: A program is an algorithm done in
commands. I think this was talked about earlier in the chat!
Learning to understand algorithms is one part, the other to
understand the syntax of C.
[17:21]<throgh_> Would be interesting what kind of systems are in usage for
now? Some of us use Hyperbola. Debian I think, also!
Something else?
[17:22]<throgh_> The question therefore: Installing development-environments
to have you being curious building the own software. ;)
[17:24]<throgh_> But I see where we could start. Give me time to prepare
something, because I think there would be also
learning-material needed. Somebody proposals where to upload
that?
[17:26]<rachad> if you can put them in hyperbola wiki that would be more than
just great
<quiliro> If it is not possible on hyperbola.info, I can host at
asle.ec
[17:27]<quiliro> rachad: yes!
[17:29]<LightBearer> good idea quiliro
<quiliro> it was rachad’s idea
<throgh_> Well, a course to prepare needs some time. Don’t want to take
too much for everybody, as this field is wide. Yes, I can do
something on the Wiki also, but therefore I need to work with
the syntax of formatting. :)
<rachad> it was our idea quiliro :)
<quiliro> :-)
[17:30]<throgh_> So while working on that: Do you have a complete overview for
all needed toolsets?
<quiliro> throgh_: no presure…nothing fancy needed
<quiliro> the important thing is that some people want to learn and
others want to teach
<throgh_> Of course not that fancy. :) But keeping an eye towards all
of us being curious. :D
[17:31]<quiliro> we need to ask Emulatorman about toolsets
<rachad> yes the goal here is to help us learn as fast as we can to
then get hyperbolabsd a push in the right direction
<throgh_> Okay, perhaps we divide the course-materials in different
parts? So everyone can do something. :) What do you think
about that?
[17:32]<throgh_> Peraps even help us together. Don’t know if this fits, but to
get this faster!
<throgh_> *Perhaps
<rachad> yeah whats in your head throgh_
[17:33]<throgh_> Well, I’d come up with an agenda learning C as proposal and
present this in the forum first. Everyone can read this and
after that we can decide what to do of this?
[17:34]<Emulatorman> throgh_: btw, welcome to the team! ->
https://www.hyperbola.info/members/developers/#throgh and
https://www.hyperbola.info/members/support-staff/#throgh
<throgh_> And by «learning C» I also think of «What is exactly the
difference for CPUs … the basics»
[17:35]<throgh_> @Emulatorman: Thanks! :)
<Emulatorman> _throgh: i’m sending your ssh public key to coadde
<throgh_> Okay.
[17:36]<quiliro> welcome to the team, throgh_ !
<throgh_> @quiliro: Thank you!
[17:37]<quiliro> does a ssh public key mean that it is a key to a silent room
full of people?
[17:38]<biovoid> haha
<quiliro> trying to make jokes like RMS
[17:39]<rachad> lol
<quiliro> but he is better
<quiliro> he can even make jokes in spanish
<quiliro> understanding a joke in a foreign language means mastery of
that language
[17:40]<quiliro> but making a joke in a foreign language is beyond mastery
<Emulatorman> throgh_: could you send again your key, seems you are
offline in tox
<Emulatorman> i forgot download it
<rachad> i think its time for me to go sleep
<Emulatorman> s|,|?|
[17:41]<rachad> thank you quiliro throgh_ Emulatorman and everyone else for
your inputs and ideas
<quiliro> good night rachad and thanks for your input
<rachad> see you all tomorrow
<quiliro> it would not be the same here without you here, rachad
<throgh_> Good night, rachad.
[17:42]<throgh_> So building an agenda, right now.
<Emulatorman> rachad: you’re welcome, have a gn
[17:43]<LightBearer> have a good night s sleep. (do not know where the
apostrophe key is=
<LightBearer> night’s
<quiliro> haha
<throgh_> Good night, LightBearer! :)
<LightBearer> in among 3 hours will be night
[17:44]<quiliro> thank you very much for being part of our team, throgh_ and
biovoid
*** Users on #hyperbola: bzp pekman +throgh_ Glider_IRC_ dmc
LightBearer coadde @Emulatorman raghavgururajan quiliro SomeHacker
asdflkj_shell GoatAvenger ZANSIGO leomd_ bandali kisaja[m]
Voitena[m] iortega[m] hook54321 nckx biovoid Redfoxmoon GNUtoo
bcavileer urluck jschwart asdflkj elibrokeit lukeshu ggoes mai__
lablt
<throgh_> @quiliro: Thanks for being part of this! :)
[17:45]<quiliro> throgh_: :-)
[17:46]<quiliro> Emulatorman, coadde without you this project would not have
been possible…thank you very very much
<LightBearer> yes, you are very welcome here to this group!
[17:48]<Emulatorman> quiliro: coadded is developing a script to
create/delete/list git repos for each member in their
personal git accounts
<Emulatorman> quiliro: so it will ease the way to do those complex git
tasks
<Emulatorman> quiliro: at least if any of you would push personal free
software source codes, not just from Hyperbola
<throgh_> So trying to copy some ideas here.
[17:49]<throgh_> 1. The computer: A secret book?
<throgh_> 1.1 The elementary parts of computing
<throgh_> 1.2 Interfaces, but for what?
<throgh_> 1.3 Communication is the key
<throgh_> 1.4 And in the end: There is the platform ruling all
<throgh_> Chapter 1
<throgh_> Chapter 2
<throgh_> 2. What about programming?
<throgh_> 2.1 Recipes of the algorithm
<throgh_> 2.2 Parts of programming-language (commands, variables and
syntax)
<throgh_> And Chapter 3
<throgh_> 3. So what about the C?
<throgh_> 3.1 Introduction and basics
<throgh_> 3.2 The syntax: Can be rude, but fair
<throgh_> 3.3 Variables and needed syntax
<throgh_> 3.4 Functions and procedures
<throgh_> 3.5 How is that about data-structures? (Arrays and more)
<throgh_> 3.6 What do you think about file-handles?
<throgh_> 3.7 And now for something completely different: Keeping all
together
[17:50]<throgh_> Done fast for some structure as proposal. Will post that if
you think it is okay!
[17:52]<throgh_> Narf, changed 3.3 for: Variables, someone’s there for help?
[17:56]<quiliro> Emulatorman: nice, coadde is great
<quiliro> throgh_: you are very fast, I saw how much you write in the
forum
[17:57]<quiliro> why «someone’s here to help», throgh_ ? because variables
help?
<LightBearer> yes, I think you have a very good method to teach.
<throgh_> Yes, and the keep it structured.
<quiliro> everything helps, no?
[17:58]<quiliro> LightBearer: I agree
<throgh_> Here you are:
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=526
<LightBearer> simple, easy and clear.
[17:59]<throgh_> With a slight «Monty Python»-style getting that a little
smile. ;)
<quiliro> nice quote, throgh_ «Certainly anyone who has the power to
make you believe absurdities has the power to
<quiliro> make you commit injustices»
[18:00]<throgh_> ;) A little message for all the people struggling. Just to
keep in mind: Not all-time so easy, but can be with having
the discussion and help each other.
<throgh_> <- idealist
[18:01]<LightBearer> yes I have already read the foot note
[18:02]<LightBearer> I have to go, the sun has already gone and I have to put
water to my plants. good bye everyone. see you tomorrow.
[18:03]<throgh_> Goodbye, LightBearer! :)
[18:04]<throgh_> So done edit for the news.
<throgh_> https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?pid=2913#p2913
[18:05]<LightBearer> the lightbearer is taking advange of the blackout! jaja
[18:07]<quiliro> I guess she meant the night, not the blackout
<quiliro> and jaja in spanish is haha in english
[18:09]<quiliro> thank you very much for your work, throgh_
[18:10]<quiliro> so publishing the log is not necessary any more?
[18:11]<throgh_> A pleasure to help. Proposal: As long as the guidance is not
fully established I’d say the log should be saved.
<throgh_> So the people can do own research. After that: Guidance is up
to all of us and getting more into interest and
self-engagement.
[18:12]<throgh_> Well it is not that Emulatorman, coadde and others can take
us by hand in the hand. ;) And we have not even talked about
programming-methods like agile development for example. Not:
I’m not a SCRUM-master, but there are different approaches to
do it!
[18:13]<throgh_> Wide fields! :D
[18:20]<throgh_> So, will have to leave now: Will come a little bit later
tomorrow as I have to rebuild some damn display from one X200
to another.
<throgh_> Literally screwing it «up». ;)
[18:21]<throgh_> See you all later. *wave*
[18:22]<quiliro> throgh_: \o